Leisa: 00:01

Hey, besties. My name is Lisa.

Tamara: 00:03

And my name is Tamara, and we're BFFs.

Leisa: 00:06

Tamara and I met when we were about 12 years old growing

Leisa: 00:09

up in good old Fairbanks, Alaska.

Tamara: 00:11

And we've been best friends forever since.

Leisa: 00:13

That's right. And that's why we've decided to have some fun, friendly conversations with the bestest of best friends.

Tamara: 00:18

We'll talk about how we became best friends, our experiences together, and have other best friends on the show to share how they met. Who knows? You never

Leisa: 00:27

know when you'll meet your next BFF.

Tamara: 00:30

Now let's get into it, how I met my BFF.

Leisa: 00:34

Welcome to another episode of how I met my BFF. Hi, Tamara.

Tamara: 00:39

Hello, Lisa. How are you?

Leisa: 00:41

I am well. How are you?

Tamara: 00:46

Oh, you know, December in Montana. It's great. Ready ready for winter. No snow yet, though. Yeah.

Tamara: 00:54

Actually, no snow, but it has been cold. But yeah. The weird I mean, I'm okay with that. A lot of people are not. And I will say there is snow up in the mountains, so it's not like, you know, awful, but it's it has been a very unusual December because even on Thanksgiving, it was like a spring day.

Tamara: 01:14

So I don't know what's going on, but I'll take it because I, you know, I don't like it being cold either, but I do live in Montana, so I have to accept that.

Leisa: 01:24

Yeah. No. I get well, good. I'm glad. I, a couple of things I've got going on, Tamara I'm not Tamara.

Leisa: 01:31

You're Tamara. My daughter Ariana is in Canada right now. She's gonna see Taylor Swift tonight. She's really excited.

Tamara: 01:41

Yeah. We've been waiting for this for

Leisa: 01:42

a while.

Tamara: 01:43

I'm sorry. I remember when she bought the tickets. That was over a year ago. Yeah. Or around, I was driving to Seattle.

Tamara: 01:50

Yeah.

Leisa: 01:51

It was a long time ago. So we were in just to catch everyone up, why is she flying to Canada to see Taylor? Is because when Taylor was here in Southern California and Vegas, all very doable options, we were in Ireland. And so she was scrolling through all the, you know, people who were at the concert and really not happy about that, but she did have fun in Ireland. So she's she made a goal to see Taylor Swift, period.

Leisa: 02:23

Like, that was gonna happen. And so she tried getting tickets, like, all over the world and ended up in, Canada. So not too bad, not too far, and she's gonna gonna be in van Vancouver. Nice. And then Mark is heading out to Ireland on Sunday.

Leisa: 02:40

So everyone's international traveling, and I'm here. I'm still here. So there you go. But that's okay. What about you?

Leisa: 02:48

What's going on these days?

Tamara: 02:52

Oh, goodness. Just I think the biggest news or thing that's, ever got his driver's license, so I'm now on kid number 4 with who can now independently drive. So, that has been very nice and we're working on trying to find him a car and, yeah, I that's kind of been, you know, business as usual here in good old Missoula. So And

Leisa: 03:19

then does Ella have one more year? Because her birthday's in December. Right? Does she have one more

Tamara: 03:24

year before? Yeah. Within this coming, essentially, 9 months, I'll have 2 drivers.

Leisa: 03:32

Oh my gosh. That'll be amazing. Like, you can get wish of your wife back.

Tamara: 03:39

Yeah. We'll see.

Leisa: 03:40

Alright. Well, I'm excited because we have a special guest today, doctor John De Oca, and he is going to talk to us about relationships. And he has a psychotherapy practice where he helps people with their relationships. So we're getting it straight from the source. An expert on relationships is here with us today.

Leisa: 04:00

Welcome, doctor John. How are you?

John DeOca: 04:03

Very good. How are you guys?

Leisa: 04:04

We're good. We're good. So tell us what prompted you to decide to work with relationships.

John DeOca: 04:14

Yes. So my story is a little interesting in that, you know, I became a nurse, worked in all your various nursing departments, ER, ICU, credit, critical care, where else did they work, home care, all with the goal of doing my master's to become a nurse practitioner in plastic surgery and inject people's faces and make them pretty. That's what was what I wanted to do and I did it, but after doing that for 2 or 3 years in a couple of different environments, whether it was MediSpa and then working for a plastic surgeon, it wasn't as gratifying as I thought it would be. However, within these appointments with these patients, this is what would be coming up that was the most rewarding where we would be talking about relationship issues, body image concerns, and that kind of sparked the interest for me to pursue this, both business and professional venture. And from there, it kind of flourished.

Leisa: 05:17

Wow. That's a that must have been you've been in school a lot then if you because you just Too long. Yeah. Too long. That's a lot of school.

Leisa: 05:25

Wow.

John DeOca: 05:26

Yeah. A lifelong learner. Mhmm.

Leisa: 05:28

Yeah. So tell us about some tips that you find you share with your clients when it comes to, let's say, more platonic relationships, like friendships or maybe other coworkers, some something like that.

John DeOca: 05:48

Yeah. I think the biggest thing when it comes to friendships and I one one author, and she's actually not a therapist, that I really recommend to my clients is Shasta Nelson. She's she's pretty much a renowned friendship expert And her first book, she breaks down categories of friendships, and it kinda looks and it kinda advises people to do a deep dive into the friendships that they do have and then the friendships that that they wanna have. And what it really does is help you examine where you are on the intimacy scale with your friendships and what are your needs because that's really what I'm advising clients to do. So we could for those of us that are in my industry, you know, therapist wise, coach wise, or whatever, loneliness is pretty much a pandemic that we're all dealing with.

John DeOca: 06:41

So, you know, is it the clients that are struggling or the the patients that I'm seeing, are they, you know, faced with, you know, just companionship deficits, or do they want someone to be sharing deep feelings with having meaningful conversations? So really kind of looking deeply and kind of figuring these out is what's gonna be really helpful. So in this book, what she does is what do your friendships look like? Do you have friendships that you have, like, let's say in a yoga class, because that would be like one category of friendships versus like your historical friends that you may not be seeing that often, but you know, maybe if you call them and you could tell them you're, let's say, you're getting divorced, you know that they would be there for you. However, you may not feel as close to them because you're not seeing them as often enough.

John DeOca: 07:30

So really kind of figuring out where you are with all your friendships and also where you wanna be, because once you know, like, what friends you have in each category, you kinda know where you where you're gonna develop others. Does that make sense?

Leisa: 07:45

Yeah. That does. It's it sounds almost like you need to bust out a spreadsheet or something, like, depending on how many friends you have. Do you have people, like, write it down or put it on a on a sheet, or do you have any recommendations of how you keep track of all that?

John DeOca: 08:01

You know, we'll do it in the work with our session. I like to and it really depends on what the client's goals are. Ultimately, where I see people falling short a lot is in those more intimate friendships because typically what I see a lot is that sometimes maybe we're mislabeling history for intimacy where, you know, if someone's my friend for, let's say 30 years, they may be close, but what does that friendship look like, and what is the time spent? What does the trust look like versus, you know, just, you know, saying you have a friend for, you know, whatever that long period of time is? So it's also too, what kind of friendships do you want?

John DeOca: 08:44

Because someone may be in the area of their life where they may just want someone to do activities with, which is okay. So it's really kind of being introspective to do that work. And however that looks like, throughout the work throughout the work we're doing together, we'll do it. So this could be like, you know, work where we're doing, together, if that's some of the goals for my clients, or this could be something I kinda just kinda give them to go do on their own, and we could kinda look back and see where they're at and kinda periodically check on this together.

Leisa: 09:17

Do you see that there are any traps people fall into when it comes to friendship or friendship relationships or any mistakes that that are made?

John DeOca: 09:26

Well, I think the biggest trap is that we call everyone a friend. Like, we're using the word too loosely, and I can't remember where I've seen this recently where it's like, well, why are we not using the word colleague? Why are we not using the word coworker? Why, you know, sometimes when we say, you know, we don't have feelings for someone, they're a friend. You know, I think the biggest trap is calling everything we don't know what to label a friend.

John DeOca: 09:54

And if a friend does something so meaningful for us, how could we do that?

Leisa: 09:59

Like, we don't have enough words that just that distinguish the relationship.

John DeOca: 10:04

We do.

Tamara: 10:05

We do though, but may do you think it's more of a social media effect? Because every per every one of our you know, if we have 500 or 200 or a 1000 friends on just Facebook, they're called friends and I, you know yeah. Do you think it's more of a phenomenon and social media?

John DeOca: 10:27

I don't know because, like, let's say even before social media came around, you know, I can't help but wonder, like, you know, let's say you've met someone through a friend, for example, and you had a meaningful experience with them. And I, you know, I think naturally sometimes some of us might be very inclined to call that person a friend and maybe they are to that person. But like, when we think about it, are they really at that point? They would probably still fall in that acquaintance category. But like, we we throw out that word that word very, very loosely.

John DeOca: 11:02

So, I guess, you know, and it doesn't have to be like this external presentation of, you know, saying you're my acquaintance, you're not my friend, but like, what is it? What does it really mean for us on the inside? Like, is this person really my friend, or I'm just kinda using this word loosely?

Leisa: 11:21

How about when the friendship changes? Like, if you decide you want to deepen the friendship or you want to back away from the friendship, do you what what do you recommend for people?

John DeOca: 11:34

And that's the thing too because, you know, it also goes into now how do we handle conflict And also, how do we handle conflict with this type of relationship? Because, like, we may think that, you know, I like to, engage with conflict proactively, but that's just maybe something that I do with my romantic partner because that's the most intimate relationship I have, or that's something I do with my family, like my brother, my sister, my mom, or my dad, because those in those relationships are more intimate. With friendships, like how does conflict look for that individual? Like, are we comfortable, you know, if we if we're ready to disengage from a friendship per se to have that conversation, or do we do a slow fade? Do we just cut contact?

John DeOca: 12:20

Do we say we're not talking anymore? Is there a conversation where we have to officially say we're done as friends? And I think that goes into, like, our own value system and what we what we wanna bring to the table and offer our friendships and also what we wanna see reflected back. So, for example, if someone was going to exit a friendship with us with us, how would we want that to happen? And then kinda go forward from there.

Leisa: 12:48

Yeah. It's tricky stuff. Where do you do you find that you work with a lot of women versus men, or is it equal? Like, being a male therapist, I think, gosh, what a great opportunity for men to have another man that they could they could work on these types of things with.

John DeOca: 13:08

Well, I hope men had the mindset that you had, but I I have more female clients than men because we're still I'm still, you know, fighting the battle to get more, men seeking mental health treatment.

Leisa: 13:22

Yeah. And probably most of our listeners are women too. So but but let's say there's one man out there listening. What do you what would you recommend for men in terms of working on the relationships or working with a therapist? What do you

John DeOca: 13:37

You know, I think even how men approach, friendships in general, you know, which typically I don't like to do gender disparities, but there is, you know, scientific data to back it up where men typically have what they call side to side friendships, where they involve activities like, you know, playing sports, doing this. So there's usually an activity that surrounds the friendship where typically female friendships do involve intimacy, you know, disclosure, having deeper conversations, you know, really kind of get in more into the weeds with connection. So what I would advise for men is to start, especially, you know, I'm in this case, maybe heterosexual men, learn from their wives and learn from their wives friendships and start imitating that in their friendships because whether we're men or women, we're still wired for connection the same. So it's all sociologic upbringing that's deterring that.

Leisa: 14:50

Yeah. It's so amazing how I I we have so many female listeners and friends, and it seems to when I shared the topic, you know, how I met my BFF, usually, a woman will have a more visceral response to it like, oh, oh my gosh. I can't wait. I have I have my best friend. I wanna bring her on.

Leisa: 15:11

Whereas men are like, oh, that's nice.

John DeOca: 15:15

So But there are stories emerging of the bromance, so I'm I'm very hopeful.

Leisa: 15:21

Me too. And we had men on our show too, and I love when there's a bromance. I there was one, episode of, what is it? 1 of the bachelors in paradise, which I don't watch very often, but I I saw 1 and it was this these 2 guys became great friends. Neither of them left with a with a girlfriend or a woman or however that works out.

Leisa: 15:42

But, they got the biggest prize of all, I think. It it was it was really fun to watch them connect.

John DeOca: 15:48

Yeah. And it it it's really good to see, and I I do think people like to see that as well. So I think men could lean into that a lot more.

Leisa: 15:56

How do you recommend or what do you recommend for someone who is like, gosh, I wanna develop some new friendships, but I don't know, like, how would I even go about finding a friend as an adult, you know, as an adult?

John DeOca: 16:10

Well, it's so funny. This and this is not something necessarily I recommend. However, I was at a wedding in the end of September, and I was at a table. I was friends with the bride, and I was at a table with the girl that was at the wedding alone, And I was like, oh, how do you know the bride? And the way she she set up the story, it was like, well, we were at a meetup and, we were at a meetup group and she and we had a great time.

John DeOca: 16:41

And I said, well, do you wanna do this again? As if it was, like, mimicking, like, their first date together. And I I just thought there was something, like, so heartwarming about, like, how she described it. And I, I would say, you know, there's so many different ways to make friends. So there's meetup groups, you know, Bumble has an option for friends.

John DeOca: 17:01

You know, there's so many different activities if you get kinda clear on what your hobbies are. So like if you like writing, there's writing groups. If you like painting, there's painting groups. If you like yoga, there's yoga classes. But I would say ultimately, I think the common theme is putting yourself out there and kind of being vulnerable.

John DeOca: 17:20

And if something misses, don't give up because if you look at it this way, we need friends. You need a job. If you don't get the job you want, you still gotta look for jobs. So the same thing with friends, you keep going.

Leisa: 17:33

That makes sense. I did not know that Bumble had a friend option. That's so cool.

John DeOca: 17:37

Mhmm. They do. Yeah.

Leisa: 17:41

I think I have the opposite problem. I don't know about you, Tamara, but for me, it's like keeping track of friends. Like, I, you know, the longer we live, we get a lot more friends coming along. And there are times where I literally like it's like having so many kids. Like I can't focus on every one of the you know, as much as I want.

John DeOca: 18:06

So may if I may ask, what works for you? Or are you still trying to develop something to keep track of everyone?

Leisa: 18:13

I'm not working. I'm trying to keep track of it. I think I'm just kinda doing the best I can. That would be that would be my guess. And I think it depends on, like, I will do something maybe for my birthday, and I'll invite a bunch of people, who live close by.

Leisa: 18:29

So that would be okay. At least, we'd have once a year to to be that's officially we're gonna get together, because I just find it too much time goes by and we're all busy and kids and spouses and things like that. So that's one way that I keep in front of people and also with social media as well. But I have so many different pockets of friends because I I'm in networking and business stuff a lot. So I meet people, but then they become friends as well.

Leisa: 18:59

So I've got, like, social friends and and long time friends and then, business friends as well.

John DeOca: 19:09

Yeah. What I've noticed too, especially as we get older and we're trying to kinda navigate because, you know, people are having babies, people having grandkids, all this, and, like, you know, relationships get more and more. You know, everyone loves nostalgia. Everyone loves a tradition and kinda everyone loves, like, that commitment to it versus, like, hey. Are you available for lunch next week?

John DeOca: 19:32

So it's like, if I have this group where, you know, the 1st weekend in June, we go away, or we do the 1st weekend in June in dinner, it seems that almost has a better adherence than, like, just trying to almost, like, randomly reach out when we can. Yeah. Because the odds of sticking to it are better.

Leisa: 19:52

Yeah. Or you just think, oh, we'll get together. We'll get together, and then you never you want to, but then you don't actually do it.

Tamara: 19:58

How do you Exactly.

Leisa: 19:59

Talk about that, Tamara? Like, how do you manage all your different relationships?

Tamara: 20:04

I think I'm kind of in the same boat as you. I try my best. I don't feel I always succeed. But and I also kinda to the point of getting older and also having lived in different parts of the country, you know, I have different time, you know, just like I've noticed time periods, you know, have changed. So like, as I'm becoming a mom with older kids, my, you know, I'm gonna do things differently than say some of my friends who are just now having children.

Tamara: 20:40

And, you know, that just is gonna take a different form of time spent together in friendship. And, you know, some people I haven't gotten to see in a while. You know, I think my struggle that I have, and I'm sure it's almost kinda like a not immaturity, but just like I still I can remember feeling this way even as a little girl, but just enhance why, you know, when going on a trip to Italy, I wanna bring 10 of my friends even though they're from all different walks of life and places because I just don't understand why we can't all be together. And, so I, you know, try my best and, caring for friendships. But I've also had to be, you know, I've I also I've noticed in the past probably like 2 years have been and it's also been kind of sad.

Tamara: 21:30

Like, I've been kind of more maybe circling around that thought of, you know, where does this friend, does this friend fit into my life anymore? And you know, it's more of just with friends who aren't giving the same that I'm putting in, you know, like the water or the garden analogy. Like if you don't, you know, once you put the seeds and you still have to water it and fertilize it and let the sun, you know, shine on it. And, and it's some of my friendships just haven't done that. And I know, you know, I'm not saying I've been perfect, but it's just it's been hard when I know I've made the, that I've taken the energy to support that and they haven't back.

Tamara: 22:14

And so, you know, I've had to kind of step away from putting energy where it just hasn't been wanted or appreciated. So that yeah. I was going to ask you, you know, just moving forward, like, how does it work in those scenarios where you are having to make a decision about whether or not you're gonna put more energy into a friendship that may not be, you know, that great.

John DeOca: 22:40

Well, I think the important thing here is, like, the future can't be predicted. Right? Yeah. So let's say we stop putting energy. Like, we don't know where this could turn out.

John DeOca: 22:53

So it's kind of like in this present moment, like, where do I want to take this? So it's like, do I feel this is a temporary step back? Do I want to say something and potentially like lean in and salvage something and kind of grow this and expose myself, like, in that, like, you know, I could be feeling sad here that we're not connecting or that, like, I feel like I'm investing more than you and seeing what happens there. Do I wanna hold someone accountable? And that's a real thing too and see what happens as well, or do I wanna move on and whatever that way that looks like.

John DeOca: 23:33

But knowing that, like, all of those things could happen, and it might not be a permanent closure and people still come back to another, even, like, when the ugliest things are said, you know, miracles do happen. I've I've seen it and experienced it. And also just to keep in the back of our minds too, because I think this is really important about the stories we tell ourselves and, you know, when we're saying things like it's not appreciated because who's saying that except for you. So it's really important to see how we're interpreting things because, like, you know, I really think there's an energy, perspective to our relationships in general and limiting beliefs could really impose on our dynamics.

Leisa: 24:23

Absolutely. John, was there anything else that you wanted to share with our listeners? Oh,

Tamara: 24:32

one more. Just to kind of twist it around a little bit because one thing we haven't really ever done, we've talked about it, but just hasn't happened is and we've had a couple, I guess, female male, but what about so I have a number of friends that are male friends that I would consider some of my best friends and it you know, we've it's been year. We have quite the history and it's never been a romantic situation. But what it you know, overall, there's this general idea that, you know, men and women can't be friends. You know, it's never that just isn't the way it is, but I actually can attest that that can be the case.

Tamara: 25:14

What are your thoughts on that?

John DeOca: 25:16

Oh, I'm in complete agreement with, with you. And, you know, I hate to cast judgment and perspectives like this, but I'm I always wonder if people that think that men and women can't be friends, if, like, we're kind of over sexualizing the opposite sex then. And that concerns me in that case.

Tamara: 25:37

Yeah. That's fair.

Leisa: 25:41

I think it kinda goes back to what we were talking about originally when, John, you were talking about the vagueness of the relationship of a friendship or what a friend is or, like, you know, we say, oh, you're in the friend zone or you've been friend zoned or

John DeOca: 25:54

Exactly. Like to

Leisa: 25:55

be friends. So it can get confusing with men and women at times if initially at the start of the relationship, one person is thinking, oh, and the other person's no. So it can make I could see where it could get tricky, at the beginning.

John DeOca: 26:15

It does. And I think these are situations that require even more discussions and a little more boundaries and that like this is a platonic friendship. And that, like, this is a platonic friendship. And if that needs to be reiterated and, you know, reiterated, that's fine. And if, you know, the other person's not respecting that, then maybe it's just not a platonic friendship on that person's part.

Leisa: 26:38

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they would need to say, okay. Well, I'm okay with that, or that's not how I feel, so I'm gonna exit or something like that.

John DeOca: 26:46

But I also do think too friends transition into the best romantic partners as well. So, you know, because that you have that foundation. So

Leisa: 26:56

It's tricky.

John DeOca: 26:57

Mhmm. It does.

Leisa: 26:58

Relationships can be messy. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I I have several male friends who are incredible and same, Tamara, that it was never there was never a hint of anything besides platonic love and respect.

Leisa: 27:15

So but I will say, I do have a lot more women friends than men friends. Yes. Just what I was raised with, I guess. John, anything else that you wanna share with our listeners today? Our best

John DeOca: 27:32

you. I think just to kinda maybe close out, I think just, you know, overall, I think we could kinda say, like, there's no one size fits all, right, when it comes to friendship. And I think that, you know, both the magnificent thing and the confusing thing is like because of that, it could be really puzzling. So, like, if you're listening to this and you might feel like friendship is challenging to you, like, don't be discouraged because, like, of all these variables we spoke about, it could make it challenging, but it also, like, gives the beauty for, like, relationships to be created and all this variety to pick from.

Leisa: 28:15

Yeah. Yeah. It's a I mean, life changing if you have a couple of really good friends. That's that's life changing. Where can people find you?

John DeOca: 28:25

Yeah. So I'm on Instagram at doctordr_johndioca, and I am my on my website at the relationship prescriber.com. Those are the best two ways to find you. So

Leisa: 28:38

the relationship prescriber, because I think you have, clients that will visit you virtually. Right? That you can help people with the relationships virtually?

John DeOca: 28:48

Yes. I'm exclusively virtually, actually.

Leisa: 28:51

Oh, exclusively virtually. Okay. Cool. Yeah. Well, that's even better.

Leisa: 28:54

So and you can help people in any state. Right? They don't have to be in New Jersey.

John DeOca: 28:59

Correct. That is correct.

Leisa: 29:00

Yeah. There you go. Look at that. So if you were looking for an a therapist, well, you may have just found your bestie therapist, whether it's about friendships or relationships or anything that's going on in your mind, any limiting beliefs you're having, you now have somebody that you can call besties. Alright.

Leisa: 29:19

Well, we'll see you next week on our how I met my BFF. See you later, everybody.

Leisa: 29:28

Hey, bestie. Thanks for listening. If you like this episode, be sure to hit that subscribe button to get notified of new episodes and check out cool bestie gift ideas at how I met my bff.com.

Tamara: 29:39

That's right. And also, leave us a review. Those reviews help us out a lot and are one of the best ways to support us.

Leisa: 29:45

Yes. And if you have a fun story about how you met your BFF, send us an email at info at how I met my bff.com. We would love to hear about it.

Tamara: 29:54

Definitely. And, hey, maybe we'll have you on our next episode.

Leisa: 29:59

That would be awesome. Until next time.

Tamara: 30:01

Love you, BFFs.